Comments on: Baby with the Bathwater? https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592 fairly undermining public confidence in the administration of justice Sun, 28 Aug 2011 05:43:16 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: NSP – Jul 9, 2011 – Co-host: JT | MarcStevens.net https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1984 Sun, 28 Aug 2011 05:43:16 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1984 […] and there ARE NO CITIZENS; only men and women described as government providing their services at the barrel of a bayonet -|- understanding the relevance of subject-matter jurisdiction in pursuing a dismissal -|- the […]

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By: No State Project 7/9/11 | Voluncast https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1865 Tue, 12 Jul 2011 04:54:07 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1865 […] and there ARE NO CITIZENS; only men and women described as government providing their services at the barrel of a bayonet -|- understanding the relevance of subject-matter jurisdiction in pursuing a dismissal -|- the […]

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By: Give me liberty, or you can have my law license | People v. State https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1477 Tue, 23 Nov 2010 00:49:27 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1477 […] occasionally wonder whether by asserting on this blog what I asserted in my last post — that the U.S. Constitution and the entire State resting on it is of No Authority — I […]

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By: John Kindley https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1476 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:02:16 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1476 In reply to Jeff Gamso.

You raise a couple interesting points in your first paragraph. First, I did not mean to imply that the provisions of the Constitution are or should be irrelevant to the operation of the courts as constitutional creations. But I do agree with Lysander Spooner, in his The Unconstitutionality of Slavery, when he wrote:

“If these doctrines are correct, then those contracts of government, state and national, which we call constitutions, are void, and unlawful, so far as they purport to authorize, (if any of them do authorize,) anything in violation of natural justice, or the natural [*10] rights of any man or class of men whatsoever. And all judicial tribunals are bound, by the highest obligations that can rest upon them, to declare that these contracts, in all such particulars, (if any such there be,) are void, and not law. And all agents, legislative, executive, judicial and popular, who voluntarily lend their aid to the execution of any of the unlawful purposes of the government, are as much personally guilty, according to all the moral and legal principles, by which crime, in its essential character, is measured, as though they performed the same acts independently, and of their own volition.”

Many people, looking back with regard to American slavery, would I think support the above principle as self-evident, as they also would with respect to judges under the Nazi regime. If the principle was valid then with respect to American slavery and the Nazi’s effort to exterminate Jews, it’s as valid today.

More interesting is your suggestion that I acknowledged some authority in the common law but none in the Constitution and that it was inconsistent of me to do so. I’ll have to think that over.

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By: John Kindley https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1475 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:10:50 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1475 In reply to John Kindley.

P.S. On further reflection, I can see why an innocent defendant wrongly accused of rape or child molestation might want to personally cross-examine his accuser rather than have an attorney do it (even though most every criminal defense attorney would say this is a very bad idea), on the theory that it will be more difficult for the accuser to lie to the accused in response to the accused’s questions than in response to the accused attorney’s questions. This makes it an easier case. But my intention in this post was not to come down on one side or the other.

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By: John Kindley https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1474 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 16:30:39 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1474 If the right of confrontation is based on the right to look one’s accuser in the eye as she makes the accusation to the jury, and on the right to cross-examination, then it would seem that the right of confrontation would be satisfied by allowing the accused to be physically present while an attorney cross-examines the accuser (whether the accuser is a child or not). You’re right that a rule preventing a defendant from representing himself and personally cross-examining his accuser only in certain special kinds of cases might imply an inversion of the presumption of innocence in those kinds of cases (though not in a way that would be meaningfully conveyed to the jury), and for that reason I on balance tend to have to agree with you and Gideon, but I still don’t think it’s a slam dunk, because the defendant ordinarily would have no good reason to want to cross-examine the accuser himself (unless the defendant also happens to be the best criminal defense attorney in town), and an obvious perverse reason to want to conduct the cross-examination himself. It also seems significant to me that the alleged victim herself may not be a voluntary witness at trial, and may have been subpoenaed against her will to testify.

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By: Jeff Gamso https://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592&cpage=1#comment-1473 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:26:51 +0000 http://www.peoplevstate.com/?p=592#comment-1473 Putting aside questions of whether the ratification of the Constitution makes it binding when not every person subject to its nominal authority has signed off on it (or even a majority), or whether your libertarianism is really a proxy for anarchy (and I mean true anarchy), or whether it’s even marginally consistent to acknowledge some authority in the common law but none in the Constitution or to acknowledge that we are subject (legitimately or not) to the courts as constitutional creations but that the provisions of the Constitution are themselves irrelevant to the operation of their creations – putting aside all of that –

Why is it difficult to understand that the asserted “right” of the alleged victim of a crime to be protected against the indignity and annoyance of being cross-examined by the pro se defendant (or his agent the lawyer, and that is essentially an agency relationship in our system, like it or not) is a sham based on the assumption that the alleged victim must be in fact a victim? Under those circumstances, the assumption is that the defendant is guilty and has no rights.

But that’s not our system (or the common law system, for that matter) which presumes innocence and provides for a right of confrontation (however much it may be limited) and no concomitant right to avoid confrontation.

The issue may not be a legal “slam dunk” (your phrase) if by that you mean that the courts will always get it right. But it’s certainly a slam dunk in terms of legal principles.

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